Exodus
WOW!! This one, not unlike last one, left me catchng my breath. Aside from a few stupid things, I really liked this one a lot.
We picked up where we left off… Sam comes to the camp with Lucifer in tow, head hanging in sorrow for, how he feels, brining Lucifer around his loved ones. Thankfully, he is greeted immediately with a hig from mom. Then he appologizes to Dean for Lucifer and Dean asks if he good… Sam says “IM alive, so yeah” and Dean tells him, with a warm hug, that he has nothing to applogize for. When he tells Sam he thought he lost him, Sam closed his eyes and melted into the hug. All his fears of rejection and shame were gone The most important person in his world still loves him. ❤
I was groaning the whole time Lucifer talked to Jack. I have always fely like Jack might go to the drk side for a bit, but he’ll come back. I need for Sam to tell Jack what Lucifer has done to him… however.. Lucifer says he lost his virginity to kelly, and now I am satisfied he never physically raped Sam. Psycholoigically? Metaphysically? yeah sure, its hell, but the common prison style rape y’all seem to enjoy, apparently didnt happen. Yay!
A very VERY stupid thing was Hitler!Cas … I didnt see any point in it, I had thought he’d kill regular Cas and then try to pal around the Winchester, which would have made that interesting but nope…. just had to sit through another one of Misha’s bad accents and facial expressions.
How badass does Sam look in camo?? CHuck bless whoever decided on that!Lets do that more 😀
I loved when Sam rescued Charlie and hugged her, then remembered she doesnt know him… “Oh sorry” and she smiled and jokingly punches him. Because really… who wouldnt appreciate a hug from Sam Winchester?
I thought Dean was great, gruff and grumbly but trying to look out for Jack. Leave it to him to be able to revive a long dead bus!
The young girl, the one who referred to Sam as Dean’s friend last episode…. I have a feeling shes up to something, Just sayin.
So Sam chokes Lucifer, gets all strong and badass “HOw did you think this was gonna end?” But leaves him there, which is fine but they dont have any archangels left to reopen the rift what??? Oh hey, lets get Michael out of the cage! I think our Michael wil posses Dean to take on AU Michael… something goes awry Maybe hes losing, Maybe Jack is being hurt? and Luci talks Sam into letting him use his vessel… together they defeat AU Michael, but Sam and Dean are still hosting, these less than upstanding arch angels into next season. Thats my prediction…. lets see how it goes 🙂
ALl in All I was pleased with this.. on a scale of Bloodlines to Who We Are, Ill give it an 8. cant wait to watch again!
Me too. I actually did like it. I didn’t have any complaints. Lol what a surprise huh?
The one thing I may have to disagree with you on is the rape issue. I’m wondering how is Lucifer having sex with Kelly proof that he didn’t rape Sam? Because the former implies consent and therefore invalidates the latter?
Also, the rape survivor Sam thing really isn’t headcanon. It’s basically canon from s7 Hallucifer to s11 Lucifer. I say basically because as you know no one has ever outright said the words Lucifer raped Sam but the heavy-handed implications and innuendos both Lucifer versions have thrown out are too obvious to miss.
However, I agree with you 100% that physically speaking rape did not happen. Rape is very much a physical act and neither Sam nor Lucifer had a body so rape in its traditional sense couldn’t happen and yet what about mind over matter? The psychosomatic link shouldn’t be underestimated. If it happened in Sam’s mind because Lucifer made the mental so real as to be indistinguishable from the physical couldn’t it be argued then that it really did happen? Also, Sam’s mind in s7 obviously couldn’t cope with the torture and trauma of whatever Lucifer did to him and in trying to it processed the memories in ways that it could understand, i.e. hooks and fire and possibly rape.
I know you never liked the implications that Lucifer raped Sam but it’s something I don’t see as out of place. Lucifer is evil, the devil itself. Why would or should rape or its psychic/mental/spiritual equivalent be out of bounds here? To me it makes perfect sense.
Consent, isnt necessary to lose ones virginity, just sex is. And if Luci was the rapist, he was consenting to do it. If Sam was raped, he was not consenting. But as I said… physically no… not this human-like prison style rape that many fans talk/write about, didnt happen, even as you said they didnt have bodies. Psychological, spiritual, metaphysical, sure, it was Hell.. imagine that anythin you want happened, and it very well may have. But every rapey taunt that Lucifer used verbally, can also be said by someone who literally wore your flesh. In the cage in S11, at the end of 11×9 was a threat not a recall of somethin that happened.
Sam can come away from that saying “Ive never had sex with a man” and be telling the truth, but it doesnt mean he doent feel like he has. Not unlike he actually didnt have sex with Toni, though to him it felt like he did. But in any sense, its not what has been tormenting him since, its whatever Lucifer’s true face is. I have a theory on that too, but I wont put it here. Message me if youd like to hear it though 🙂
Did Lucifer choke Anael in Heaven? Did Naomi drill into Cas’ head with a drill? Was Dean “on the rack” in Hell? Did Dean “pick up the knife” in Hell? When Sam and Dean both remembered meat hooks, were there really meat hooks? Was there fire? Does the devil really “burn cold”? Was it even really “torture”? Do angels really “fly”; it seems more like they’re teleporting to me. Do they even have “wings”- people walk around angels where their wings would be all the time and there’s nothing physical there.
Why doesn’t anyone ever point out that the “torture” in Hell wasn’t purely physical torture of living human bodies, or complain when people writing fics use any of the above canon representations in a literal way? People only seem to feel the need to point out it wasn’t “real” or “physical” in regards to that one particular act and not all the others. Why would that be?
Everything else here I’m not gonna touch atm, because I know we’re both fully aware of what the arguments are, and are not going to be able to convince one another. What I want to know is why. Why does it matter so much whether it was “common prison style rape” or some other kind of violent act that the involved parties (and Mark P) conceptualized as having a sexual component that made it analogous to rape?
I honestly wish I could answer it, and answer it in a post short enough for people to actually read. For me it matters in so many levels, but I guess Ill just point out, for now, that for some reason unbeknownst to me…. people LIKE the idea of the physical prison style rape taking place between Lucifer and Sam. I’ll post this and gaurentee that at least 5 people I dont know will argue it with me and Ill be baffled as to why they want this of someone they say they love? With a show like this, it was a very bad seed to drop. SPN is in no way equipped to deal with it properly, and they dont want to try because its “not that kind of show” but Gamble put the image in our minds and its been a topic of convo ever since. Mark P’s panels and photo ops are always peppered wth giggly girls asking stupid shit like “In the cage with Sam, who topped?? hehehehe” “Did Lucifer really rape Sam giggle giggle and if so, was it repeatedly? gigge giggle” and then the scary amount of Samifer shippers, it makes me sick. Sometimes Id like to read a late season fic, but its very hard to find one that doesnt mention the rape, or even describe it in detail.
Ill say I dont believe there was a physical rape for reasons XY and Z and people will jump on me about this being why women dont come forward because no one believes them…. what?? No…. Sam is a fictional character for one… he does whatever the writers make him do and thats all. If he said “Hey I was raped” or we saw it, then there would be no question, But he didnt, and everything hallucifer said can also be applied to someone who literally wore your body, so its always been debatable. To me, it looks like the show is coming away from the idea… and Im happy about it, Im like #unrapesam2k18 and other sam girls are fighting it. Im sorry… it just baffles me. I dont get how a Sam girl cant be happy to let that go.
I don’t think anyone besides nasty “Samifer is sexy” sickos and seriously nasty Sam haters WANTS Sam to have been raped by Lucifer–certainly not Sam girls, Sam-loving Dean girls, or anyone else who cares about him. But there’s no denying that something happened, whether literal physical assault or some kind of psychological equivalent, that both Sam’s memories via Hallucifer in S7 and Lucifer himself in S11 onward viewed as rape, as judged by the various “bunk buddy,” “bitch in every sense of the word,” and “wittier rape” sort of comments both versions of Lucifer have made. As much as we would love for Sam to not have suffered something so horrific, we can’t ignore that it was part of his trauma.
And I would take Lucifer’s comment about being a virgin before Kelly Kline with a hefty grain of salt. He is the Prince of Lies, after all, and always tries to warp the truth to make himself look sympathetic or right. He’s especially going to do so when trying to impress Jack.
Everyone is skipping over his comment in LOTUS when he commented hed never done that before, which he didnt need to lie about. But no, they like it or, theyd be happy the show is coming away from it and wouldnt include it in nearly every late season fic. Every comment hallucifer made, as I have said before, can be said of someone who has actually worn your body. S11 was a threat, not a recall of something that already happened and “The Rapier wit, the wittier rape” is an old saying used to describe a sharp debate (a rapier is a thin blade) which is what Lucifer was talking about when he said it. But look….. no one wants to hear that.
Sure Sam absolutely went through horrible torture, we see him being burned alive, hanging by his flesh and eyelids while being stabbed, all of which could very well be worse than a rape. but no one here wants it to be, Ive never seen anyone ever meta on what being burned alive is like or skinned alive, just rape. Even when Sam with his own words tells us and Rowena that its seeing Lucifers true face is whats had him sleepless and scared for years, no one accepted it and try to twist it into them both meaning they were raped. So something billions of men and woman have lived through throughout history, is worse than any torture Hell can deliver? Of course its not, but look at everyone coming out of the woodwork to talk about it. Dont let someone be happy to see it being written out, argue with them that it HAD to have happened because…. reasons
“Rapier wit” is a phrase meaning sharp wit (yes, because a rapier is sharp). Everyone knows that.
“Wittier rape” is not a saying, that’s Lucifer turning the phrase around into another thing he misses from the cage.
The dialogue is “That’s what I’m talking about, Sam; real interaction again, I missed that — the rapier wit, the wittier rape.”
Sam’s reaction is not to roll his eyes or laugh, but to flinch.
Why is it so important to you that Lucifer’s torture didn’t include sexual assault?
I’m with Wings here. There’s more evidence to say that Lucifer did than didn’t. Just because Bucklemming tries to retcon or plain forget something for the sake of a (lame) joke doesn’t mean it didn’t actually happen. Bucklemming’s episodes in particular tend to be inconsistent from one to the next. They’ve made rape jokes between Sam and Lucifer, yet written Kelly/Lucifer and believed it to be unwanted consensual sex and Lucifer’s loss of virginity. This itself is strange because in the episode before Lucifer raped Kelly, it’s implied that Lucifer had sex while possessing Vince…
I don’t remember the dialogue of 12×08 to a T, but if I recall, Kelly says he’s acting like he’s never done it before because he’s asking about his performance, etc. In this episode, a cross also affects anything ‘evil’ even though it’s canon from season 1 that hallowed ground/objects only repel weaker beings (Meg can walk into a church, Azazel isn’t affected by holy water made by praying on rosary beads, but less powerful demons are). The only other episode a cross affects Lucifer is 11×18, another Bucklemming episode. However, in 13×02, Lucifer is seen with a Bible in his hand (even though Kelly’s hand burned a Bible when she was impregnated).
So I think the logical explanation is that Bucklemming has their own canon where in dramatics and comedic effects are more important than consistency. The rest of the writers don’t believe that Lucifer lost his virginity to Kelly. And Bucklemming may retcon, but other writers don’t always follow through. Yockey in particular retconned a Bucklemming retcon in 13×19 when he makes it explicit canon that reapers aren’t angels.
There’s not only concrete evidence to say Lucifer raped Sam, but there’s much more across several seasons that proves it than evidence which disproves it. Some in Bucklemming episodes, some otherwise. It’s something that has stayed consistent between three different showrunners. Most importantly, to Sera Gamble, who created the story of Sam’s rape in the first place. The episode before this, by Berens, carries heavy implications that Lucifer is a rapist and also implications that he is queer (or at least capable of a joke about liking Drag Race, which obviously has a large audience of queer men). Bad villain-coding or not, Berens is gay if I remember correctly, and I’m sure he included this as an intentional signal. Cas also says that possession by Lucifer was “the worst violation” and that he was “used.” In any case, much of 13×21 was heavy-handed rape-coded language when it wasn’t fun sexual innuendo between Rowena and Gabriel. Furthermore, 13×12 potentially used seeing “Lucifer’s true face” as a metaphor for rape, as it’s described as an unimaginable violation which can only be understood by those who have experienced it, or is at least difficult to talk about to those who haven’t experienced it. Referring to it as his “true face” is also a significant choice of diction because it is similar to showing one’s ‘hidden self’ or ‘true colors.’ Even when it’s not about the physical rape, the writers have alluded to it in the metaphysical sense multiple times this season.
It’s hard to think about it happening to Sam, and fic that doesn’t delve into the details is nice (especially for survivors who want to read the content but don’t want to be triggered, which is who those fics should be most accessible to imo, unless it’s just pwp…), but I find it disheartening to see people handwave everything that’s happened with such ease (no offense, Jacki, I really do understand why). It’s always easier to believe a happy lie than a sad truth, and I feel that this happens too frequently in real life. I want to see the show continue on with this implication in a way that respects Sam, as it seems to in the latter half of this season. And I want Sam to have a successful revenge arc against his abuser without the writers woobifying said abuser. Bucklemming may have attempted to woobify Lucifer through his Kelly comments (hahah, what a funny, charismatic guy, he can’t be a truly uikabke villain!!! look, he has fun-guy but Deep TM feelings and motives!!! we made him cry bc Gabriel was ~meeaaaannn) but to me, those don’t say anything about Lucifer except that he doesn’t even realize what he did to Kelly is rape. By all logic… Lucifer is still a virgin. And quite frankly, it mirrors his redemption situation well. He claims to be changed and claims Sam is indebted to him, but he hasn’t actually redeemed himself in any way, given the opportunity. All that Lucifer has really done is use people, but he thinks it’s a positive for his character. Creepily like season 5’s Lucifer.
I am in the camp that believes Lucifer raped Sam—and did worse to him.
The Supernatural fandom has a large number of people in it who were sexually attacked at some point in their lives (for women this is not particularly astonishing, a huge percentage of women have been raped) and when someone says that Lucifer didn’t rape Sam, I believe that for some people this feels like a pattern of denial they’ve experienced in their lives from family and friends. Denial and silence, or at least, don’t make waves.
I have studied English Literature and it’s true that ‘rapier wit’ is a pretty stock phrase. It is not ever followed, in my knowledge, by ‘the wittier rape’. In Los Angeles, Supernatural is on at 8:00 and television standards mean that even though the CW is a cable network, there are certain topics that will get pushback from studios and networks and you can bet that Lucifer raping people in Hell is one of those things.
I’m usually a person who says that if it’s inferred, it’s not canon. In this case, it feels to me as if it very strongly inferred. Unlike Wincest or Destiel, where people are responding to subtext (and Kripke has talked about homoerotic subtext between the brothers as intentional—there are scripts that use the term ‘eyefuck’ to describe the way Sam and Dean look at each other) I read the rape references as not joking, and ways of talking around material that they can’t really show.
That said, I understand if someone prefers to not see that in the show. However, ‘the prison style rape y’all seem to enjoy’ feels like a personal attack on people who watch the show the way I do, and made me cringe thinking of people who feel like this discussion echoes the denial they’ve experienced all their lives.
Many non-con writers use writing about rape and non-con to explore and perhaps defang some of their own experiences with trauma. So ‘the prison style rape y’all enjoy’ seems a particularly tactless way to talk to fellow fans. Butfandom is large.
Okay, so there’s something I’d like to throw out there that seems to be disturbingly missing in the discussions I’ve seen on this topic.
Rape is a form of sex about as much as a pineapple is a mode of transportation.
One is the use of your body as a tool of domination and humiliation, of which I’m sure Lucifer has a very well-developed repertoire. The other is an act that is a mutually shared experience between two people who have the capacity to consent.
Not only are the two experiences different emotionally, but the source of pleasure for the perpetrator is also different because, again, rape is a form of sex about as much as a pineapple is a mode of transportation. Sometimes sexual pleasure is part of the experience for the perpetrator, sometimes it’s not. Sexual pleasure is a not a necessary component of rape for the rapist.
Lucifer differentiates between the two because they are two different experiences.
In addition, the fact that Lucifer differentiates between the two, but still doesn’t understand how the act he performed with Kelly was not a mutually consented one because of the deception he perpetrated on her, highlights just how much he still does not get it. He hasn’t changed. He still cannot see other beings as having thoughts, feelings, and needs that are separate from and of equal value to his own. And that, as Gabriel pointed out, is the source of his evil.
Hearseeno 